Curse

HigherMinion · Sep 15, 2010, 10:50 AM // 10:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by stanzhao

learning gw skills is not like learning to read at all.

first, people are forced to learn to read in schools. I am not entirely sure you can unintentionally learn something. You can memorize what something should look like. but to work out the formula of 'why' is a different thing all together.

i am not sure where i am going with this...

Well, subliminal messages are one way of unintentionally learning something. This is more due to spending too much time at the Priest of Balthazar and wiki, getting battered by foes in-game, and wanting to know what the hell butchered them so.

In some ways it's like a language... Sounds absurd though.

ruk1a · Sep 15, 2010, 12:44 PM // 12:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aba

Bingo...
be around something so much, you start to pick it up without trying or wanting

exactly, used to have a spanish friend and his family didn't speak english at all, ended up being able to speak to his mom eventually, more or less...

Carboplatin · Sep 15, 2010, 01:22 PM // 13:22

Had this convo with a friend yesterday, who's gf is just getting into GW.

You mention a mob/area, we know exactly what builds to bring. We know what skill you need and how to counter each one. It quite scary actually, just common sense for alot of us.

Yet, for a newcomer, just throwing them a build gets them confused and all the mesmer icons look the same to them.

When GW2 comes around, same skill name different function. That is gonna be a pita to get used to.

When Gash really isn't gash, I am gonna be looking for that DW. Wait, what DW? that doesn't exist either.

Jk Arrow · Sep 15, 2010, 01:33 PM // 13:33

I thought about this the other day while talking with some guildies. Upwards of several thousand hours almost equated to another full time job.

If I would have put some of that time towards my golf game, I wouldn't still be a 15 handicap.

Silmar Alech · Sep 15, 2010, 02:24 PM // 14:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by stanzhao

I am not entirely sure you can unintentionally learn something.

Sure, you can. I am german, not a native english speaker. I learnt english in school. After school, I practiced by reading english books and writing in forums, and I can say that I understand written english perfectly good. But I had no practice in actually hearing and speaking english, so if you talked to me, I probably wouldn't understand what you were saying.

Ten years ago, a group of 4 US people were given a desk near my desk in our german office. They had a temporary problem-solving job, so they talked endlessly with each other with an accent I never heard before and which I didn't understand a word from. I had no business with them, so I tried to ignore them.

In the first week, I didn't understand one word.
In the second week, I understood a few simple words.
In the third week, I understood some phrases and simple sentences.
Beginning with the fourth week, I completely understood what they were talking about.

And I really didn't try to listen to them or talk with them. I only sat nearby.

Angel Killuminati · Sep 15, 2010, 02:34 PM // 14:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by awry

If we see an incomplete bar, we know what's missing, just like if we were looking at an incomplete sentence.

Yes we can easily identify an incomplete bar, like a sentence, but...

In the real world, the English language, like any other language is free flowing, allowing for different approaches to complete the same problem - written sentence structure and speech.

We don't all have to use the words in a strict order - obviously there are exceptions, such as "I toilet need go to". That makes no sense, but we don't judge people, or foreigners if they haven't understood fully, or grasped the language to a fluent extent. Understanding a multitude words and how they are arranged can get you by in life, but you don't need to be fluent in order to be able to 'get by.'

On Guildwars though it differs. People look at players skill bars and instantly state it's wrong because of meta changes and latest build trends. The average PvE group or PvP group will crucify someone for the wrong skill, even if it is in someway appropriate, or the player has learnt how to use that successfully. Because it looks odd or out of place, the player is alienated.

Language in that respect differs an incredible amount. As a general statement, you wouldn't have a go at someone for not using the correct words and grammar in real life. It would be stupid to think you could, correcting everyone you meet (you might think it in your head, but you wouldn't outright tell someone their speech is wrong - something as a group leader in GW you might do, in relation to their skill setup). Not editing every spoken mistake in relation to language allows for human error and mistakes.

Understanding what skills go with what skills and in what order is a decent comparison of human speech and fluency with a language. But overall, Guildwars players looking at other players skill bars and slating one skill, is so far away from human speech and language, leaving that comparison incorrect. There is no alternative in Guildwars, (you have to follow the latenst trends and what's popular - otherwise you're kicked), where as many people don't use correct grammar and punctuation in language and get by, without question, mostly.

Benderama · Sep 15, 2010, 02:46 PM // 14:46

weird but i kinda agree with the OP, without thinking while using a spirit spammer (like reading a children's book) you'll instantly go pain>bloodsong>sos>painful bond in some order.

Wyndy · Sep 15, 2010, 02:50 PM // 14:50

Wanna hear something really scary? I was waiting in line for the GW2 demo and it looked like the necro skill Feast of Corruption had the icon from Unholy Feast. heh.

awry · Sep 15, 2010, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angel Killuminati

Yes we can easily identify an incomplete bar, like a sentence, but...

In the real world, the English language, like any other language is free flowing, allowing for different approaches to complete the same problem - written sentence structure and speech.

We don't all have to use the words in a strict order - obviously there are exceptions, such as "I toilet need go to". That makes no sense, but we don't judge people, or foreigners if they haven't understood fully, or grasped the language to a fluent extent. Understanding a multitude words and how they are arranged can get you by in life, but you don't need to be fluent in order to be able to 'get by.'

On Guildwars though it differs. People look at players skill bars and instantly state it's wrong because of meta changes and latest build trends. The average PvE group or PvP group will crucify someone for the wrong skill, even if it is in someway appropriate, or the player has learnt how to use that successfully. Because it looks odd or out of place, the player is alienated.

Language in that respect differs an incredible amount. As a general statement, you wouldn't have a go at someone for not using the correct words and grammar in real life. It would be stupid to think you could, correcting everyone you meet (you might think it in your head, but you wouldn't outright tell someone their speech is wrong - something as a group leader in GW you might do, in relation to their skill setup). Not editing every spoken mistake in relation to language allows for human error and mistakes.

Understanding what skills go with what skills and in what order is a decent comparison of human speech and fluency with a language. But overall, Guildwars players looking at other players skill bars and slating one skill, is so far away from human speech and language, leaving that comparison incorrect. There is no alternative in Guildwars, (you have to follow the latenst trends and what's popular - otherwise you're kicked), where as many people don't use correct grammar and punctuation in language and get by, without question, mostly.

Ah interesting post. Well i was referring to logical associations of skills. One example would be if you bring a kd, you would bring something that would capitalize on that kd, and if you use a certain term or expression in english, a logical follow up is expected.

But getting to your point of discrimination about speech patterns and exclusion, it seems like you live in a good neighborhood, but i want to point out that there very much exists groups based on language and there is discrimination. For example, certain groups in the united states despise ebonics and I would doubt someone speaking ebonics would get into a high class dinner party. Or someone speaking with a deep southern accent would mingle with a californian sorority party. You might not necessarily fight with someone who uses words differently, but just like gw, real life has its share of elitism and niches based on slang and expressions used. And the conflicts between those groups make the conflict between pver's and pvper's look absolutely trivial by comparison

LordDragon · Sep 15, 2010, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by stanzhao

learning gw skills is not like learning to read at all.

first, people are forced to learn to read in schools....

For me reading was immersion. I was read to and had books around me since I can remember. I can remember vividly and completely from the age of three up. I also remember entering kindergarten with the ability to read and sound out anything that was put in front of me.

So for me, I was never really "taught" to read.

I do agree with the OP that I have amassed a large amount of information in the years of immersion in GW.

dark582 · Sep 15, 2010, 04:54 PM // 16:54

The same pattern can be seen in other symbol based systems as well. For example, I'm a musician and have been for 11 years of my life so when I look at a piece of sheet music, it is very natural and easy for me to understand what each symbol means and what I need to do to replicate what I see through my instrument.

Another example is the binary number system. After taking a class that deals heavily with binary, I can say that when i'm in that class, I shift my thinking from base 10 (decimal) to base 2(binary) in much the same way a person fluent in two languages can shift their thinking from one language to another.

Lord Dagon · Sep 15, 2010, 08:17 PM // 20:17

never thought about it that way.. that really is creepy xD. Guess thats how i learned my spanish too.....

snowman relic · Sep 15, 2010, 09:08 PM // 21:08

lol guildwars math next:

There are twelve charr at the gate you are level 10 warrior the charr are level 15 you have no heros your henchmen are a lv 10 healer, lv 10 brawler, and lv10 enchanter what do you do?

A) Have brawler smash two charr at once while enchanter deals with one and you kill one healer keeping you alive untill they overwhelm

B) you and brawler team up on charr one by one making kills easy while enchanter deals with healers

C) Screw that reroll your toon you shouldent have chosen a warrior lol (its a joke i love warriors personally)

awry · Sep 15, 2010, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by snowman relic

lol guildwars math next:

There are twelve charr at the gate you are level 10 warrior the charr are level 15 you have no heros your henchmen are a lv 10 healer, lv 10 brawler, and lv10 enchanter what do you do?

A) Have brawler smash two charr at once while enchanter deals with one and you kill one healer keeping you alive untill they overwhelm

B) you and brawler team up on charr one by one making kills easy while enchanter deals with healers

C) Screw that reroll your toon you shouldent have chosen a warrior lol (its a joke i love warriors personally)

d) I flag the hench as distraction and skip my merry way into the portal.

snowman relic · Sep 15, 2010, 11:07 PM // 23:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by awry

d) I flag the hench as distraction and skip my merry way into the portal.

while skipping a group of 8 lv 28 oni's from the deep appear and kill you, you cant beat gw math lol

Fate Crusher · Sep 16, 2010, 12:06 AM // 00:06

If every sentence was 8 skills long, then yes, we could say that we've mastered a basic language.

I like what you're thinking and it's a scary thought, but I would relate it more to Maths and algebra than something as complex as a language. It's like identifying a number, quantifying it in a different measurement and working out the rest of the solution (synergy of other skills/builds/team builds/type of PvP) with other "numbers".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ka Tet

So what you're saying is if Spanish speakers gave old white men tiny pets or shiny gold emotes for learning Spanish, then no one would care about immigration. My friend, I think you should visit the Middle East.

You don't make sense.

Moreover, I live in the Middle-East and unless you're South African, not a single country cares that much about immigration at all (because SA passports also contain your criminal record). The UAE love it, Qatar is open and you can drive into Saudi Arabia from Dubai/Qatar if you wanted. That last part however you're expected to leave after 24 hours, but whatever!

nem coke · Sep 16, 2010, 09:08 AM // 09:08

It's not a big deal, average player will have a couple thousand hours played. Let's say 2k hours (I'm not sure if that's the average, I have 5k , and there are a lot of people with more than that) ,that player would need to learn only skill description every 1 hour, with exception of every 3rd hour, where you'd need to learn 2 skills. Well , human brain capabilites are a lot higher, so it's really nothing special.

Chthon · Sep 21, 2010, 04:28 AM // 04:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

flash cards that you play with for an hour or two hours or possibly three. A very effective studying strategy!

WTS Rosetta Stone Texmod!! Learn Chinese 8 characters at a time with new, patented "GW Immersion System"!

BlueNovember · Sep 21, 2010, 08:20 AM // 08:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius Bsns

... It's kind of like playing Chess for so long that you know, from start to finish, what every move will ever lead to. ...

Chess? With 1319 "pieces" that's even more than Taikyoku shogi.

Quote:

If guild wars was a language, we would all be either fluent or at least semi literate.

~3,000 hours to become "competant" with a language. So for most people here, that's at least 2 languages.

Additionally, if you were unemployed whilst playing GW, follow these steps:

Find your hours played with /age
Find the minimum wage in your area
(If you have a college/university education, add to the above figure as you see fit)
Do some multiplication.

Miss Puddles · Sep 21, 2010, 03:00 PM // 15:00

That's assuming a degree actually gets you ahead these days. Wah wahhh.